Let The Countdown Begin!!
We have talked back and forth in the comments section about the greatest at any particular postion, so for the next nine days we will debate them in posts with the final day coinciding with the first day pitchers and catchers can report.
Now, let's talk rules. For those of you who keep score at games, the progression will make sense, we start with pitchers and end with right fielders. You can nominate anyone who has played a single game at that position and you are under no obligation to make an argument for your selection. I will throw out some names and stats to get the topic started each night. (And for pitchers feel free to select more than 1)
So, without further ado let's talk pitchers. Some names to consider....
Cy Young 511 wins, 2803 K's 138 ERA+
Walter Johnson 417 Wins, 3509 K's 147 ERA+
Sandy Koufax 165 Wins, 2396 K's, 131 ERA+
Lefty Grove 300 Wins, 2266 K's, 148 ERA+
Christy Mathewson 373 Wins, 2502 K's, 135 ERA+
Pedro Martinez 214 Wins, 3117 K's, 154 ERA+
Mariano Rivera 68 Wins, 934 K's, 199 ERA+ (Mariano has the best ERA+ of anyone with 1,000 IP in MLB history. For comparison sake, Pedro is #2)
And your choices are?
Comments
I like the approach.
I will give 3 per position (my own limitation to control myself)
I will offer thoughts, not as defense to my picks but rather because I have something to say (possibly)
BTW - ERA+ is littered with closers which I comment on below.
I will pass on Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson et al from the turn of the century timeframe. Why? Because the game was severely different back then. I appreciate the numbers and I appreciate what was happening but until hitters started hitting the ball over the fence, something was different. So in my mind, pitching records until 1920's have an asterik for me.
That being said I also struggle over longevity vs brilliance over 5-7 years.
I also struggle with how closers rate. I get your point about Mo's era but the ability to throw 3 or 4 outs and use your skills to do it 3 or 4 times per week is amazing. But knowing you will never face the same batter twice on a given night changes the game for me. I will exclude Mo and any other closer that would be second (Eckersley? Gossage? Sutter?)
So I have narrowed it down to 1920's and later starters (for me anyway):
Pedro
Koufax
Maddux
just short of my list would be Clemens (yes, prejuice) and Gibson
Posted by: blmeanie | February 6, 2009 07:50 AM |
Walter Johnson is definitely my choice. As much as I would love to pick Rivera, my favorite Yankee, the sample size upon which his ERA is based is much smaller than for a starting pitcher like Johnson.
Walter Johnson threw 110 shutouts; consider that no other pitcher is within even 20 shutouts of that record and it is unquestionably one of the most unbreakable standards in baseball. He dominated hitters both before and after the onset of the "lively ball" era, since he played from 1907-1927. Moreover, he won 417 games despite playing for the lowly Washington Senators for his entire career.
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February 6, 2009 02:30 PM
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I previously mentioned:
RHP: Matthewson, W. Johnson, Feller, Seaver, Gibson
LHP: Grove, Hubbell, Spahn, Koufax, Carlton
Nice post BL: I sympathize with your points about not picking pitchers prior to 1920, as the game was so dramatically different then (this is one reason why I left Cy Young off my list); About relievers -- yes, Mo has been historically special, but still, the broader point stands: it's not the same as starting, especially with the "modern" evolution (Eckersley and later) from "fireman" to "closer"; And finally, about the struggle between shorter term dominance vs. longer-term consistency.
Peter's rules state that we are to select "the greatest at any particular postion". Meaning only one. You're killing me here, Peter. So I'm going to cheat, because I can't do it. I'll pick one RHP and one LHP. Starters only.
RHP: Feller
LHP: Koufax -- His excellence was shorter-term ('63-'66), and was in the relatively pitcher-friendly 60s, but, wow -- who had a better four-year run (1920 and later)? Besides, he had some other years that were by no means shabby. I was sorely tempted to choose Spahn, though.
Posted by: Greg | February 7, 2009 07:19 PM |